Berbers was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc. EXCLUDED) have pred. Amazigh heritage (very conservative estimate given the fact that in countries like Morocco it's at around 80%), we arrive at more than 49 million people. It's widely known that the 38 million number refers to Amazighophones. Tarekelijas (talk) 07:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only" No it doesn't. Take another look at the sources.
"I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers" That's WP:OR. Nowhere in these sources does it state that these are merely Berber-speaking populations. Skitash (talk) 10:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
he population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc 212.108.150.178 (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
response to this: Yes, you are indeed right. Most surveys conducted in Morocco, do not ask about your ethnic origin. If you speak Tamazight, it counts you as one, otherwise, it wouldnt. but for the general population, more people consider themselves Amazigh than what the wiki pages and surveys indicate. However, there is no source to confirm this 'yet,' so it should remain as it is until further proper surveys of the population are conducted. TahaKahi (talk) 08:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
English wikipedia but some terms are translated to Arabic ?
Simple: the Amazighs are not Arabs. If you are going to do this, then why not apply the same standard to any ethnic population that is a minority (which is not even the case in Morocco)? I don’t like to speak much about this, but for any Amazigh person, it feels like they are always categorized as a secondary offshoot of Arabs, with whom they are not even related. If anything, it raises the question of why such things exist in the Amazigh wiki pages in English (specifically), which are, for some reason, tightly moderated by people who are particularly focused on Arabic nationalism. Nonetheless, Amazighs have their own language, history, and ancestry; they shouldn’t have a different language used to describe them when they have their own written language. TahaKahi (talk) 08:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Wikipedia "writers" using colonialist nomenclature to refer to the Amazigh people? The Amazigh people find the term "Berber" insulting. The wider world needs to refer to Aboriginal people by their chosen labels rather than ones that were given to them by their oppressors. The term Berber is derogatory. 2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D (talk) 02:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The name Berber derives from the Latin word for barbarian, first being used as "Barbar" or people of "Barbaria" to describe North Africans. The ancient Greeks reportedly called the these people Libyans, The Arabs picked it when they conquered North Africa and started using it to refer to the local Amazighs. TahaKahi (talk) 08:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm planning a complete overhaul of the article "List of Berber people", the main fault of the old version was its lack of sources, which will be fixed. I think it has a certain importance, given that Berber culture is not very well known. In addition, I'll be relying mainly on the French version of the article, on which I've been making changes for several months and which tends to improve it. Samso231 (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! This is a continuation of a long-standing issue that has been brought up many times, but I wish to ensure it is addressed properly. The issue concerns the inclusion of Tamazight text in the right sidebar of the article, where Neo-Tifinagh script is missing. Additionally, there is the inclusion of Arabic text, which does not align with the approach used for other ethnic groups that also exist in Arabic-majority countries. TahaKahi (talk) 13:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton What exactly is this that you're doing on the page? the common name rule does not matter in this article, And what do you mean by the endonym being a 'Berberist' addition? You make no sense. This article needs an administrative decision at some point if we keep misinterpreting guidelines after the 100th argument over it. TahaKahi (talk) 23:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
this has been on the article for months that's not a valid to keep it. It's a baseless claim by some Berberists that was presented as a fact. The Berbers are not an ethnic group and when the different Berber ethnic groups refer to themselves, they refer to their specific ethnic group (Kabyle, Chaoui, Mzabi, Tergui, Rifi, Chelhi, etc). M.Bitton (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They fall under a similar ethnic category, namely "Amazigh"/"Berber." You are entitled to a different opinion, but that is what is widely agreed upon. Please refrain from using labels like "Berberist," regardless of the tone you intend with it. Let’s focus on the larger issue: why have you rearranged words in the sidebars under the "COMMONNAME" guideline? Arabic is not even meant to be the focus of this article, yet you have made it the lead lang. TahaKahi (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arabic is not even meant to be the focus of this article that's your irrelevant opinion and the root cause of why you keep harassing me. M.Bitton (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please engage in the discussion without making the issue personal? You changed some of my edits and of others, and I am trying to have a conversation to reach a consensus. Let’s keep it civil. Also, please avoid using phrases like "your irrelevant opinion." Thank you. TahaKahi (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Include of course, given that the word Berber is Arabic. There are other reasons that aren't worth mentioning (the fact that it's an Arabic word should send this RfC to bed very quickly). I'm surprised that this is even questioned (using some irrelevant comparison). M.Bitton (talk) 22:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me make it crystal clear for you: 1) Your claim is baseless (that French source is based entirely on Arabic sources). 2) Berber is an Arabic word (a fact that is easily attributed to a raft of RS). 3) This is the English Wikipedia. M.Bitton (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) WP:NPOVAvoid stating opinions as facts.Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. 2) English or French encyclopedia does not change the fact that the term is of Greco-Latin origin and of the same lexical root for both languages. This makes an academic source in French valid. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest everyone moves on from this minor point. The etymology of "Berber", or "Amazigh" for that matter, is not really relevant; if they are used to refer to the people, that's all that's relevant. R Prazeres (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Include Not speaking to any of the other issues that might come up about nomenclature, but I see no reason to remove the Arabic, especially per إيان's comment above. The script and language remain in use throughout North African society, including among Amazigh/Berber peoples. +Comment: The names might benefit from some minor re-organizing for visual clarity; e.g. maybe grouping the renditions of "imazighen" on the one hand and renditions of "berber" on the other. The form Imaziɣen, specifically, also looks like a pseudo-IPA transcription(?). If so, then it should be removed, or we could include relevant transliterations/romanizations throughout instead. R Prazeres (talk) 22:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Berberity (or its conscience) is carried by Berberophony according to Salem Chaker. And the Berbers are also often French-speaking, so are we going to put the term in French? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not include of course. There is no justification for including Arabic, as it is not a Berber language, even if it was used during Amazigh reigns while the region was under Arab colonization and afterward (a situation similar to the use of Turkish during the Ottoman period).
WP:OR and WP:USEPRIMARY. Berber written in Arabic in the Middle Ages is a different thing from Arabic. The same goes for Persian/Turkish written in Arabic characters but it is no longer so.
I don't believe This is about whether Berbers use Arabic or not. It's about its inclusion in the ethnic naming section of the infobox. While Arabic has been and is used among Berbers, it is not their ethnic language. In my view, only Berber languages utilizing the Arabic script should be included, with Arabic itself mentioned in the spoken languages section. As is the case for almost most articles about ethnicities in Arab-speaking countries. TahaKahi (talk) 23:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, "not their ethnic language" is a meaningless statement. More precisely, this is a written medium so it's the script that's at issue. Comparing to other articles is not a good idea, given that contexts differ, but even so the Arabic script or its variants are present in the same way in many ethnicity or human group articles for the region: Kurds, Persians, Nubians, Armenians in Lebanon, Uzbeks (all of whom speak non-Arabic languages and in some cases also have other historic or contemporary scripts at their disposal), and so on. Since the Arabic script has been used by all the peoples of the region for centuries and still is, the only argument for excluding it is a purely political one, which raises WP:NPOV concerns. R Prazeres (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I didn’t phrase my response properly. You’re presenting articles that use ethnic language written in Arabic script, not Arabic itself. However, in the case of the article "Berbers" it uses the Arabic language itself, not the Amazigh language written in Arabic script. TahaKahi (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
R.Prazeres Berber encyclopedia state :[1]Il y a donc bien eu, au Moyen Âge, une dynamique d’appropriation de l’écriture arabe par les Berbères, comparable à celle qui s’est produite dans les domaines turc et iranien en Asie mineure et centrale. Mais ce processus n’a manifestement pas abouti :nulle part ne s’est constituée une véritable tradition écrite du berbère en caractères arabes, stabilisée et socialement significative. Et l’essentiel de ce patrimoine scripturaire en alphabet arabe a disparu avec les formations politiques qui l’ont initié. . We must differentiate between Arabic writing and the Arabic language. Just as writing Berber in Latin is neither Latin nor French. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not include . The Arabic language brings nothing here, it have copied the term «barbarian» and the genealogies from the Latin, Christian and Jewish period: "Enfin et surtout, malgré leur diversité et leur originalité apparente, presque tous ces récits, que l’on peut diviser en cinq grands types, sont fondés sur des modèles juifs ou chrétiens, simplement adaptés et enrichis. [...] il introduisait surtout un éponyme fort opportunément inventé pour expliquer le terme générique forgé à leur arrivée par les Arabes (probablement à partir du latin Barbari), Berr ou Berber." as reported in the Berber encyclopedia [2] so the term «Bar-Bar» in Arabic is a simple copy/homynim of the ancient (latin) terms, « Barbari » no more and no less. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Britannica is written in English. The French source is irrelevant (this is the English Wikipedia), it also doesn't cite neo-Tifinagh (that, for some unknown reasons, you're not complaining about). M.Bitton (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Include It makes no sense at all to remove Arabic, especially considering that "Berber" is itself an Arabic word. Moreover, the vast majority of Berbers speak Arabic, which serves as the lingua franca for communication among the various Berber groups (who speak mutually unintelligible languages). Skitash (talk) 00:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not include - I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion; I will say that other ethnoreligious groups from the Middle East, such as Kurds and Assyrians, don't have Arabic listed as one of their languages, since they come from countries with different official languages. Groups such as Mandaeans, Nubians, and Turkmen have specific dialects of Arabic listed due to their region of origin, but they mention their original language as well. My thoughts are to not include Arabic as a whole, but consider having specific dialects of Arabic native to areas where indigenous Amazigh land lie, like Algeria and Morocco. Otherwise, not include. Surayeproject3 (talk) 01:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
